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	<title>Comments on: 273. Lattice Chiral Gauge Theories: What&#8217;s the Problem?</title>
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		<title>By: Worth Reading &#171; Not Even Wrong</title>
		<link>http://www.nonequilibrium.net/lattice-chiral-gauge-theories-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-6202</link>
		<dc:creator>Worth Reading &#171; Not Even Wrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonequilibrium.net/?p=1698#comment-6202</guid>
		<description>[...] Podolsky has some very useful guests posts on various topics, including chirality on the lattice (here and here), and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Podolsky has some very useful guests posts on various topics, including chirality on the lattice (here and here), and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: 276. Lattice Chirality and (non)Decoupling of the Mirror Fermions</title>
		<link>http://www.nonequilibrium.net/lattice-chiral-gauge-theories-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-6123</link>
		<dc:creator>276. Lattice Chirality and (non)Decoupling of the Mirror Fermions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] my previous post on a brief overview of the current situation of lattice chiral gauge theories and the Ginsparg-Wilson for..., I would like to say just a few words about what J. Giedt, E. Poppitz and I did in the recent [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my previous post on a brief overview of the current situation of lattice chiral gauge theories and the Ginsparg-Wilson for&#8230;, I would like to say just a few words about what J. Giedt, E. Poppitz and I did in the recent [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dmitry</title>
		<link>http://www.nonequilibrium.net/lattice-chiral-gauge-theories-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-6114</link>
		<dc:creator>Dmitry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;NOT because I wanted you guys to unknowingly click on my paper!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

LOL, I don&#039;t care much even if you did :-) Thanks for the link!

In the mean time, I found that &lt;a href=&quot;http://diracseashore.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/quick-link/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Moshe Rozali posted a link&lt;/a&gt; to &lt;a href=&quot;http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0102028&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Luscher lectures&lt;/a&gt;, and I quickly went though them. There is a complelling picture of chiral gauge theory appearance by dimensional reduction from 5d gauge theory with massive Dirac fermions(anomaly-free). 

Cheers,
Dmitry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>NOT because I wanted you guys to unknowingly click on my paper!</p></blockquote>
<p>LOL, I don&#8217;t care much even if you did <img src='http://www.nonequilibrium.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  Thanks for the link!</p>
<p>In the mean time, I found that <a href="http://diracseashore.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/quick-link/" rel="nofollow">Moshe Rozali posted a link</a> to <a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0102028" rel="nofollow">Luscher lectures</a>, and I quickly went though them. There is a complelling picture of chiral gauge theory appearance by dimensional reduction from 5d gauge theory with massive Dirac fermions(anomaly-free). </p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Dmitry.</p>
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		<title>By: Yanwen Shang</title>
		<link>http://www.nonequilibrium.net/lattice-chiral-gauge-theories-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-6110</link>
		<dc:creator>Yanwen Shang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonequilibrium.net/?p=1698#comment-6110</guid>
		<description>Sorry, the link to the reference [2] above was wrong. The correct one is here
&lt;a href=&quot;http://arXiv.org/abs/0812.2085&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;[2] E. Poppitz and M. Unsal, ?Index theorem for topological excitations on R^3 * S^1 and Chern-Simons theory,? arXiv:0812.2085 [hep-th].&lt;/a&gt;
NOT because I wanted you guys to unknowingly click on my paper!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, the link to the reference [2] above was wrong. The correct one is here<br />
<a href="http://arXiv.org/abs/0812.2085" rel="nofollow">[2] E. Poppitz and M. Unsal, ?Index theorem for topological excitations on R^3 * S^1 and Chern-Simons theory,? arXiv:0812.2085 [hep-th].</a><br />
NOT because I wanted you guys to unknowingly click on my paper!</p>
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		<title>By: Yanwen Shang</title>
		<link>http://www.nonequilibrium.net/lattice-chiral-gauge-theories-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-6109</link>
		<dc:creator>Yanwen Shang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:14:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonequilibrium.net/?p=1698#comment-6109</guid>
		<description>After a bit more careful search, I learnt that in deed, the so called &quot;parity anomaly&quot; is precisely the correct substitute in odd dimensions to the axial or gauge anomaly in even dimensions. It turns out that this &quot;parity&quot; anomaly is very closely related to the usual gauge anomaly in even dimensions. What happens is that in odd dimensions, say in 3D, no regularization scheme exists that preserve parity. The Pauli-Villar for example breaks parity in odd dimensions! As a result, the partition function after being regularized, picked up a non-vanishing phase, which naively is not supposed to be there when the action is real. This phase turns out to be 
[tex]Im log Z=\frac{\pi}{2}\left(\sum_{\lambda_k&gt;0}1-\sum_{\lambda_k&lt;0} 1\right)[/tex]
where [tex]\lambda_k[/tex] are the eigenvalues of Dirac operator D. This is called the parity anomaly. The difference of the two infinite sum is called the eta invariant. And this thing, oddly enough, after regularization, is not necessarily integers. And it is closely related to the index of Dirac operator in space of one higher dimension. See [1] for more detailed explanations (which I am also still digesting). And incidentally, this is also related to Erich&#039;s another piece of work. See [2]!

Although I haven&#039;t worked the whole thing out yet. But given the above understanding, I am quite confident that similar argument holds true in odd dimensions, namely, naive discretization of Dirac operator necessarily fails to reproduce the parity anomaly and therefore there must be fermion doubling issues. It must be that in the continuum limit, the theory contains many copies, each is the parity transformation of the other.

Thanks again for Dmitry&#039;s very insightful question.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6WB1-4DF4VTS-1G&amp;_user=994540&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;view=c&amp;_acct=C000050024&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=994540&amp;md5=fe97440e19ddb996662272b3ba36f02f&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;[1] L. Alvarez-Gaume, S. Della Pietra and G. W. Moore, &quot;Anomalies And Odd Dimensions,&quot; Annals Phys. 163, 288 (1985).&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://arXiv.org/abs/0901.3402&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;[2] E. Poppitz and M. Unsal, &quot;Index theorem for topological excitations on R^3 * S^1 and Chern-Simons theory,&quot;  arXiv:0812.2085 [hep-th].&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After a bit more careful search, I learnt that in deed, the so called &#8220;parity anomaly&#8221; is precisely the correct substitute in odd dimensions to the axial or gauge anomaly in even dimensions. It turns out that this &#8220;parity&#8221; anomaly is very closely related to the usual gauge anomaly in even dimensions. What happens is that in odd dimensions, say in 3D, no regularization scheme exists that preserve parity. The Pauli-Villar for example breaks parity in odd dimensions! As a result, the partition function after being regularized, picked up a non-vanishing phase, which naively is not supposed to be there when the action is real. This phase turns out to be<br />
<img src='http://www.nonequilibrium.net/latexrender/pictures/4bab804724e90fce4908cd0b239cda4d.gif' title='Im log Z=\frac{\pi}{2}\left(\sum_{\lambda_k&amp;gt;0}1-\sum_{\lambda_k&amp;lt;0} 1\right)' alt='Im log Z=\frac{\pi}{2}\left(\sum_{\lambda_k&amp;gt;0}1-\sum_{\lambda_k&amp;lt;0} 1\right)' align=absmiddle/><br />
where <img src='http://www.nonequilibrium.net/latexrender/pictures/8ff9c1b69b4201fec1b23780372d5cdf.gif' title='\lambda_k' alt='\lambda_k' align=absmiddle/> are the eigenvalues of Dirac operator D. This is called the parity anomaly. The difference of the two infinite sum is called the eta invariant. And this thing, oddly enough, after regularization, is not necessarily integers. And it is closely related to the index of Dirac operator in space of one higher dimension. See [1] for more detailed explanations (which I am also still digesting). And incidentally, this is also related to Erich&#8217;s another piece of work. See [2]!</p>
<p>Although I haven&#8217;t worked the whole thing out yet. But given the above understanding, I am quite confident that similar argument holds true in odd dimensions, namely, naive discretization of Dirac operator necessarily fails to reproduce the parity anomaly and therefore there must be fermion doubling issues. It must be that in the continuum limit, the theory contains many copies, each is the parity transformation of the other.</p>
<p>Thanks again for Dmitry&#8217;s very insightful question.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6WB1-4DF4VTS-1G&amp;_user=994540&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;view=c&amp;_acct=C000050024&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=994540&amp;md5=fe97440e19ddb996662272b3ba36f02f" rel="nofollow">[1] L. Alvarez-Gaume, S. Della Pietra and G. W. Moore, &#8220;Anomalies And Odd Dimensions,&#8221; Annals Phys. 163, 288 (1985).</a><br />
<a href="http://arXiv.org/abs/0901.3402" rel="nofollow">[2] E. Poppitz and M. Unsal, &#8220;Index theorem for topological excitations on R^3 * S^1 and Chern-Simons theory,&#8221;  arXiv:0812.2085 [hep-th].</a></p>
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		<title>By: Quick link &#171; Shores of the Dirac Sea</title>
		<link>http://www.nonequilibrium.net/lattice-chiral-gauge-theories-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-6105</link>
		<dc:creator>Quick link &#171; Shores of the Dirac Sea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonequilibrium.net/?p=1698#comment-6105</guid>
		<description>[...] interesting issue, which perhaps does not get enough love, so I was happy to see this discussion of chiral gauge theories on the lattice. There will be a followup tomorrow, I&#8217;d be also happy to hear about lattice supersymmetry, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] interesting issue, which perhaps does not get enough love, so I was happy to see this discussion of chiral gauge theories on the lattice. There will be a followup tomorrow, I&#8217;d be also happy to hear about lattice supersymmetry, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Yanwen Shang</title>
		<link>http://www.nonequilibrium.net/lattice-chiral-gauge-theories-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-6104</link>
		<dc:creator>Yanwen Shang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonequilibrium.net/?p=1698#comment-6104</guid>
		<description>Hi, Dmitry, thanks a lot for asking this very good question! 

I have to admit that I haven&#039;t thought about this at all. Our excuse is we were interested in defining chiral gauge theories on lattice. In odd dimensions, the spinor representation doesn&#039;t reduce to left-handed and right-handed ones. There is only one irreducible spinor representation and the theory has to be &quot;vector-like&quot; (in the sense that psi and psi-bar are the same fields). So in this sense our problem doesn&#039;t exist there.

But you might be interested in whether naive discretized Dirac operator on an odd dimensional lattice could cause fermion doubling issues, because my argument seemed to rely on the existence of anomaly which disappears in odd dimensions. I don&#039;t really know the answer but my guess would be yes. The real question, however, is how serious this problem is. Because even for the bosonic theories, a naive discretization could cause species doubled. But even if it happens, it would just be trivial repetition of the same theory and can be cured by just properly rescale all the fields, which one would have to do while taking the continuum limit anyway. It&#039;s only a real problem in fermionic theories because the &quot;doublers&quot; must carry opposite chiralities to cancel the anomlay. With this requirement seemingly gone in odd dimensions, I guess odd dimensions would not suffer from the same level of difficulties as even dimensions.  

Again, I haven&#039;t thought about odd dimensions carefully at all and would love to hear more experts explaining it. A quick google search led me to the key word &quot;parity anomaly&quot; which claims that in odd dimensions, while the partition function will not suffer from the anomaly related to its complex phase, there still is something that can cause its sign not well defined. But there seem to exist contradicting claims and I would love to know if someone else understand those things well. This may also be totally irrelevant to the topic here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Dmitry, thanks a lot for asking this very good question! </p>
<p>I have to admit that I haven&#8217;t thought about this at all. Our excuse is we were interested in defining chiral gauge theories on lattice. In odd dimensions, the spinor representation doesn&#8217;t reduce to left-handed and right-handed ones. There is only one irreducible spinor representation and the theory has to be &#8220;vector-like&#8221; (in the sense that psi and psi-bar are the same fields). So in this sense our problem doesn&#8217;t exist there.</p>
<p>But you might be interested in whether naive discretized Dirac operator on an odd dimensional lattice could cause fermion doubling issues, because my argument seemed to rely on the existence of anomaly which disappears in odd dimensions. I don&#8217;t really know the answer but my guess would be yes. The real question, however, is how serious this problem is. Because even for the bosonic theories, a naive discretization could cause species doubled. But even if it happens, it would just be trivial repetition of the same theory and can be cured by just properly rescale all the fields, which one would have to do while taking the continuum limit anyway. It&#8217;s only a real problem in fermionic theories because the &#8220;doublers&#8221; must carry opposite chiralities to cancel the anomlay. With this requirement seemingly gone in odd dimensions, I guess odd dimensions would not suffer from the same level of difficulties as even dimensions.  </p>
<p>Again, I haven&#8217;t thought about odd dimensions carefully at all and would love to hear more experts explaining it. A quick google search led me to the key word &#8220;parity anomaly&#8221; which claims that in odd dimensions, while the partition function will not suffer from the anomaly related to its complex phase, there still is something that can cause its sign not well defined. But there seem to exist contradicting claims and I would love to know if someone else understand those things well. This may also be totally irrelevant to the topic here.</p>
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		<title>By: Dmitry</title>
		<link>http://www.nonequilibrium.net/lattice-chiral-gauge-theories-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-6099</link>
		<dc:creator>Dmitry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonequilibrium.net/?p=1698#comment-6099</guid>
		<description>Dear Yanwen,

thanks a lot for the very nice post which nicely fits to the &quot;Open problems&quot; series :-)

Let me ask you a naive question - what happens in 3d (or, say, 5d) where anomalies are absent?

Cheers,
Dmitry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Yanwen,</p>
<p>thanks a lot for the very nice post which nicely fits to the &#8220;Open problems&#8221; series <img src='http://www.nonequilibrium.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Let me ask you a naive question &#8211; what happens in 3d (or, say, 5d) where anomalies are absent?</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Dmitry.</p>
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